Dr. Guenther interviewed Timothy Wenger, creator of the website The Man Effect, about the definition of masculinity in 2018 and how masculinity is connected to mental health issues.
Original airdate November 06, 2018.
Disclaimer: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you’re in need of professional mental health, and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county’s crisis service hotline, or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911, or go to your nearest emergency room.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Hey it’s six o’clock, and time again for ‘Brain Matters’, the official radio show of the UA counseling center. We are broadcasting live from the WVUA FM studio, 90.7 The Capstone, on the campus of the University of Alabama.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Good evening, my name is Dr. BJ Gunther, and I’m the host of the show. In case you don’t know, this show is about mental and physical heath issues that affect college students, and in particular UA students.
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Dr. BJ Gunther: Tonight’s show … excuse me, is an interesting one, and one that Catherine, one of my production assistants, actually suggested when she was doing research to help a client out. She found a website called ‘The Man Effect; Defining Masculinity’, and we thought that would be a great show.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Our definitely of masculinity has traditionally behaved as an umbrella, or most male life decisions and behavior. Once this umbrella is removed, it may be difficult to navigate without it. The show tonight serves to instigate further questioning on masculinity, and how we define it. And if we even need it in the modern age.
Dr. BJ Gunther: My guest tonight is Timothy Wenger, and I hope I’m pronouncing his last name correctly. Timothy is a photographer, writer, and entrepreneur. He has been publicly creating a discussion around masculinity since October 2014, when he started a project called ‘The Man Effect.’ And the foundation of this project is the question if you were to describe what it means to be a man in one word what would it be and why? And he asked thousands of people this question, and generated a genuine thought provoking conversation around the topic of masculinity in today’s day and age. He will continue to push and develop this conversation for the foreseeable future, he has a passion for men’s mental health, and hopes to encourage men to tackle self mastery.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Wow, what an introduction. Timothy, can you hear me?
Timothy Wenger: I sure can. Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Thank you so much for being on the show, did I pronounce your last name correctly?
Timothy Wenger: You did, I was actually impressed. You did quite well.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well thank you, with my southern accent sometime I’ll tend to butcher … you know, I butcher the english language.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your credentials, and how you got involved in the website? You said you started it, it sounded like in October 2014. Tell us a little bit about your interest in this topic.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah. I don’t got anything too shiny for credentials, I have a background as an electrician.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: I went into that after high school. And now I run my own consulting business for electrical contractors. But, back in 2014, when I was in my apprenticeship, as an electrician, I started to really dive into the topic of masculinity. And I wanted to develop my skills in photography.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: And out of that, I started really just digging in and I decided to start a project focused on masculinity. And that foundational question of, if you were to describe what it means to be a man in one word, what would it be and why?
Timothy Wenger: I just went all in on it.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah. Did you get … how did you decide to start the website? And talk a little bit about the website.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah. The website kind of happened out of necessity. I initially started on Facebook. I had originally started taking photographs of my friends and family, and it started to grow, and I started to push it more and more, and I realized I should really have a place outside of just social media.
Timothy Wenger: So I started the website, and then I started thinking, well man, I should start writing observations of my experiences, these commonalities I’m seeing. So I started writing as well. And then writing, it really forced me to dive deeper into the issue, and at the same time, I’m pushing myself to become a better human being, master myself. I was going through men’s retreats, and therapy, and all sorts of stuff. So it was just this kind of whirlwind of intensity all at once.
Dr. BJ Gunther: What was the response? Did you start getting responses from your social media pages, or the website? Or how did people know about this?
Timothy Wenger: Initially I was just tagging my friends, and their friends were seeing it. I did work on trying to promote it. Before Facebook had changed it’s algorithm, I was up to about 28,000 people, who liked the page on Facebook. I was getting some pretty good engagement, but stuffed changed on there, and my engagement went way down. So then, I decided to focus more on my website, and writing articles, and pushing that. [crosstalk 00:06:27]
Dr. BJ Gunther: Do you mostly write the articles yourself? Do you do any kind of research on …. do people send in articles, and you think they might be interesting for other people to read? Or how does it come about, you know?
Timothy Wenger: I do have some guest authors. That’s either people reaching out, or I might request for them to do it. But I would say, 80% to 90% of the content is myself. It’s either stuff I’m going through, and I want to do an article on it. Or it’s something I want to do research on, and so I do do some research into some papers though.
Timothy Wenger: I try to make it more of really good common, life insights let’s say. Just for practical … when you’re talking to someone, look them in the eye.
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right.
Timothy Wenger: Stand up straight, kind of stuff.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, and you must have either felt that there was a need for this, or either had … just from observation with the media, or in publications that there was a basic need for this kind of conversation.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah. I mean even in my own life, I didn’t really know.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: I was realizing those around me didn’t have a good answer to my question. When I don’t get a good answer, it just makes me want to dive in even further. So it just started leading to more and more questions for myself, and I fell in love with the topic, and got obsessed. That’s pretty much-
Dr. BJ Gunther: How you got it started, yeah. You’ve been doing it-
Timothy Wenger: A lot of guys are really wondering, what does it mean to be a man? Am I a man? Am I good enough? Am I just a boy? When do I become a man?
Dr. BJ Gunther: And the roles have changed over the decades too.
Timothy Wenger: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Dr. BJ Gunther: What does it … how do we perceive masculinity, in the year 2018?
Timothy Wenger: You know, I think we perceive it as confusion. What I mean by that is there’s just a lot of confusion around the topic.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes.
Timothy Wenger: And people who say they know what it is, that kind of, chat down as extremists or whatever. So it’s just really interesting. And saying that I’m a traditional male, now is associated with being chauvinistic, and hating other people. So it’s really interesting time, because all these different roles for men seem to be … I’ve seen some guys feel very threatened or under attack of their masculinity, and they’re just confused about.
Dr. BJ Gunther: What about … the name of the website is ‘The Man Effect’, how did you come up with that and what does that mean?
Timothy Wenger: I don’t know how I initially really landed on that name. I remember what I was thinking, was just the effect of a man, in his immediate surroundings, like a very integrous individual, has a strong impact. So I was trying to portray that in the name, like the effect of a man. That’s kind of where that came from. It was four years ago, so I’m like man, I don’t even remember entirely.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah it’s-
Timothy Wenger: I remember that was the general sense I was going for. And trying to … the idea of when … I’ve experienced when there’s … for myself or I’ve watched other guys, where they’re around a strong male authoritative figure let’s say, and they try to impress or be like that man.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes, yes.
Timothy Wenger: There’s this influence, where the man is directly like, man I want to be like that guy. I find that really interesting. That was kind of the angle of doing that.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah, it makes sense. I’m thinking about some of the students I work with, the guys I work with, and some of the issues they come in to talk about, it is … I don’t know how to explain it. Some of the issues, they’re almost embarrassed to talk about it because they feel like … this is a counselor’s office, you can just about talk about anything. Literally. But sometimes, you can tell it’s the way that either society has structured the roles of a man, for a man. Or either the way they’ve been taught at home, or the example that was set by their father or … or maybe they didn’t have a male role model, in their life. And so, it does factor into how they … sometimes how men relate to other people. It’s not a fallacy.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, no, absolutely. I haven’t had enough time to research it, what I would like, but what I’ve read about the loss of a father figure in early child development, is just, it’s really interesting to see that influence.
Timothy Wenger: And then fast forward, I’ve seen my friends and people five, ten years younger than me craving for a father figure in their life, but they don’t have one. And I see acting out in all these different ways. Trying to get that affirmation [crosstalk 00:11:47].
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right.
Timothy Wenger: Or trying to get their coach to think they’re the best ever. You know, whatever it is. It’s really interesting to see that desire, and that need really swear out later in life.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Right.
Dr. BJ Gunther: One of the articles I read, in researching for the show tonight, it is actually entitled “Masculinity: How do we define it in 2018?” And the discussion was inspired by, after reading a book by Robert Webb, it’s called “How Not to Be a Boy”, I don’t know if you’ve ever read that.
Timothy Wenger: No, that sounds fascinating.
Dr. BJ Gunther: It sounds good, doesn’t it? It talks about how the concept of masculinity follows and shapes boys and men, and how society’s perception of what a man, manly influences, many factors in men’s lives such as openness regarding their sexuality, emotions, relationships, and of course mental health, which is my interest. And the beginning of, the introduction that I read, came from this article, and I’ll say it again, where the definition of masculinity has traditionally behaved as an umbrella over most male life decisions and behavior. And once this umbrella is removed, it may be difficult to navigate without it.
Dr. BJ Gunther: And it goes on to talk about it, the article talks about … it’s not really an academic article, but rather serves to instigate further questioning on masculinity, and how we define it, and if we even need it in the modern age. Do we even need to define masculinity today, do you think?
Timothy Wenger: Oh man, that’s a loaded question.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I know it.
Timothy Wenger: You know, I think that –
Dr. BJ Gunther: Not to set you up, sorry.
Timothy Wenger: No, no yeah, you’re fine. I just, I want to be careful with the words. I think giving men a place to know a good goal of what a good man is, is very important for society.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Timothy Wenger: Now if that plays out as what it means to be a man, and to be masculine I’m not sure. But I think it’s very important to have a good representation of who you can become for men. I think that’s very important.
Dr. BJ Gunther: The term, I know you’ve heard the term metro-sexual.
Timothy Wenger: Correct, yes.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Can you talk a little bit about that, and do you talk about that at all on your website? Or have you had articles or discussions about what it is to be metro-sexual? Is that a negative or positive term? Talk a little bit about that, if you can.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, so I mainly target heterosexual males. But I absolutely have nothing against, I just say non-heterosexual because there’s so many terms that have come out. I’m kind of behind, I think, on some of them.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: But I have multiple friends who are non-heterosexual, that I absolutely love, and they’re amazing men. So it’s just … I’m not super caught up on sexual orientation.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah, I think you misunderstood me, I said metro-sexual. Have you heard that term?
Timothy Wenger: Metro-sexual, sorry.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: What do you mean by that?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, and that’s what I was asking you. What do you … how do you … do you feel like that’s a negative or positive term, with regards to all masculinity? Does it have anything to do with masculinity? Can you define it a little bit for the listeners?
Timothy Wenger: Oh. I think you mean just someone who’s kind of like, more effeminate? Is that kind of the definition-
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, I guess I mean … one example that comes to mind, and I’ve heard him actually be labeled as a metro-sexual is David Beckham. The soccer player.
Timothy Wenger: Really?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: What?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Oh yeah, google it.
Timothy Wenger: Oh my god.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes. Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: You know, honestly, I haven’t heard that word used, or that term used in such a long time.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: I could care less … I’ve met guys who are, I guess some people would say they’re metro-sexual, but I don’t even think about that. Because they’re still secure in who they are, I don’t know, it just hasn’t even been a factor in my brain. But I would say metro-sexual is kind of a derogatory term, when trying to tear someone down-
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah, is it?
Timothy Wenger: You’re not fulfilling this certain role that I expect you too. I could definitely see that that would be something used … I haven’t heard that in a while.
Dr. BJ Gunther: How does-
Timothy Wenger: I apologize.
Dr. BJ Gunther: No, no problem, I’m just bringing it up because it’s a term that I’ve heard. You know, some of the kids say too.
Dr. BJ Gunther: How does society’s perception of what makes a man, manly influence factors in men’s lives?
Timothy Wenger: Man, that was a good question. I love that.
Timothy Wenger: You can go on a macro scale of advertising, and some of the messages they’re sending us though, you know stores and … I was talking to a guy who helped redo Axe’s, you know the Axe body spray?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Oh yeah.
Timothy Wenger: He was the main guy on rebranding them, to help guys buy the product.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Oh yeah.
Timothy Wenger: It made me really start to realize on a macro scale, how there’s a lot of stuff going where they’re trying to guide people. So I think there’s a lot of that going on, with those messages. You know, use this body spray and you’ll get laid, or –
Dr. BJ Gunther: True.
Timothy Wenger: Do this and you’ll be jacked. It’s a huge, subtle factor that we get fed a lot.
Timothy Wenger: But then there’s also, say you’re not a more muscular guy, or assertive individual, you constantly get fed messages that you’re not as masculine. Or that you’re lesser than. And those really bleed through into a lot of areas of people’s lives, where they constantly get beat down, and feel like they have to fill those voids. That are literally for probably like maybe 10 or 20% of men, to fulfill that one, over aggressive, super muscular role.
Dr. BJ Gunther: True, true.
Timothy Wenger: And so I see that constantly hammering down on my friends, or other people that I see that are beat down by that type of message, in my surrounding [inaudible 00:18:31].
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, is it something you think most guys think about a lot?
Timothy Wenger: I don’t think so. I don’t think they would associate with that directly. Unless if their particularly struggling, or if they’re insecure in that area.
Timothy Wenger: I think it just kind of lumps into not feeling good enough, or have just having shame about themselves in general.
Timothy Wenger: But I’m not so sure that they would specifically think, man, I’m not a good enough man.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I know.
Timothy Wenger: They have hesitation to take risks, because there’s a lack of self confidence. And that’s really common too. So it’s like, well if I’m not good enough, I’m not going to try. And that makes the … the negative snowball effect, where they’re not taking risks, and they’re not learning they can do it.
Timothy Wenger: And then in reality, the biggest thing holding them back is themselves, because it’s their own self belief, from all these messages that they’ve agreed with, so it’s frustrating. I’m sure many times, these guys who have a lot potential, but they’ve chosen to believe all these messages that they’re not good enough. They hold to those, more then they hold to their dreams. So, conquering.
Dr. BJ Gunther: When we first started talking you mentioned attending men’s retreats. What is that? And can you give an example of what you’re talking about?
Timothy Wenger: Yes. I think of myself as my own guinea pig, or hamster, you know?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Uh-huh.
Timothy Wenger: I’m always just testing stuff on myself. I’ve gone to … there’s one called ‘The Mankind Project’, kind of like a more spiritual… I’m trying to remember the term for this, there’s a type of therapy, it’s like when you act out psycho therapy.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Psychodrama?
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, I’m trying to remember, it’s something along there. So it’s like a two or three day weekend retreat with just a bunch of guys, and they put you through exercises, and it’s kind of like a modern day initiation process.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay.
Timothy Wenger: Guys who didn’t have father figures, or a lack of father even if they were there. It’s a great way to just get initiated by other men.
Timothy Wenger: So I’ve done some of those, and then lots of different online groups, to see what those were like. To feel it out. That’s was like going into a chat room with thirty other guys, and checking in for six weeks, and talking for an hour or two. And developing your vision for your life, and stuff like that.
Timothy Wenger: They’re very interesting, I think at a certain point they can be a good tool. For some men they’re really helpful, for other men they’re not.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay. Just like anything, you know. Basically.
Timothy Wenger: Exactly.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay, I’ve got an email question, if you’re willing to take it. Are you ready?
Timothy Wenger: Yes. Let’s do it.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay, does masculinity include ignoring the sensible, or sensitive side of caring about the well being of others?
Timothy Wenger: Absolutely not. I think if you are fulfilling who you are as a man, let’s just say. You’re absolutely going to take care of other people, you’re going to be trustworthy.
Timothy Wenger: I don’t know where they stigma comes from, that if you’re a manly man that you don’t have emotions.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I know.
Timothy Wenger: I haven’t been able to figure out where that comes from, or that you’re not tender. If you think about it, there’s this really unique that always happens, so like, oh my dad’s so tough, but he’s got this really tender side just for my sister and for me. There’s this very common perception that a really manly man can have some tenderness, but it’s very specific in how he can display it, and everything outside of that is a negative.
Timothy Wenger: I think men … how they display it can be different. So if as a business owner, you might create a job for someone who’s in need. Or you might come along side someone and walk them through how to build a business. There’s a lot of different ways that that can be displayed.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, you know, I see a lot of the girls that I see, or the women I see, if they’re in a relationship … what do you think, to that end, what we just talked about, what do you think is the number one complaint?
Timothy Wenger: Number one complaint of?
Dr. BJ Gunther: The relationship.
Timothy Wenger: Of the relationship?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Uh-huh.
Timothy Wenger: I don’t know. That they don’t, that men don’t show enough emotion?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes. Or they don’t talk. Or they don’t care. You know, it’s all related. So what you just mentioned, how do we help men show emotion and still feel masculine? I guess that … is that a crazy question?
Timothy Wenger: Definitely, no. I think what’s interesting, there’s a lot of pressure for them to show emotion-
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes, very much.
Timothy Wenger: But that pressure does come from, the more feminine side. And men probably aren’t going to emote the same way that women do, but they will emote.
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right.
Timothy Wenger: And so it’s just a matter of learning how they’re going to emote, and create a place for them, for when they do that they don’t feel-
Dr. BJ Gunther: Pressured.
Timothy Wenger: Exactly.
Timothy Wenger: But it’s also … I’ve found a lot of men don’t even have the vocabulary to articulate what they’re feeling.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I think you’re right. I think that’s exactly true.
Timothy Wenger: Or they might belittle it too. They’re like, oh I’m just a little sad, or I’m a little angry. When in reality, they’re just sad or they’re just angry.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Uh-huh. Timothy will you stay on the line and let us take a break really quickly? If you’ll do that we’ll be back in just a few minutes, and when we do come back, I want to talk a little bit how culture influences masculinity. So, if you’ll just stay on the line for a minute, we’ll take a break, you’re listening to ‘Brain Matters’ on 90.7, The Capstone.
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Disclaimer: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you’re in need of professional mental health, and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county’s crisis service hotline, or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911, or go to your nearest emergency room.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Hey you’re back listening to ‘Brain Matters’ on 90.7 The Capstone, and tonight we’re talking about defining masculinity and ‘The Man Effect’, and ‘The Man Effect’ is actually a website created by my guest tonight, Timothy Wenger, and he is also a photographer, and a writer, and an entrepreneur.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Timothy, talk a little bit about your photography.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah. Well, what do you want to know?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, do you use … on your website, is that your photography? Are those the pictures and the photographs that you’ve taken? Because it’s a cool website, and if you want to go to the website it’s simply TheManEffect.com, isn’t that right?
Timothy Wenger: Correct. Yeah, so all of the interviews and portraits of people, I’ve taken myself. And then stuff in the articles, some are stock photos. I’ve taken, I think it’s between three and four hundred portraits now, of people that have interviewed for this project.
Timothy Wenger: It’s really fun to have that intimate interaction, and really get to dive into the topic with people, who I’ve never met before.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Timothy Wenger: Or went to talk to on the street, you know?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Oh yeah.
Timothy Wenger: It’s been really fun.
Dr. BJ Gunther: When we left off before the break, we were talking about men and masculinity, and showing emotions. Another one of the articles that I read for the research tonight asked do we as a society still expect men to display a smaller range of emotions, then they actually feel?
Timothy Wenger: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. BJ Gunther: What do you think? I mean still, even in this day and age, I see it with the students I see, with the guys I see in therapy. I sure do see it. So what do you think about that?
Timothy Wenger: I absolutely think people still expect men not to show emotion. Because there’s a lot of discomfort, when a man shows emotion.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I guess so, yeah.
Timothy Wenger: When a guy that you think is a this pillar starts breaking down and crying, because he’s just given up on life, or he’s just depressed, most people don’t know how to react to that. So they would prefer for men not to show that type of emotion. Even with men, I say it, but it makes them uncomfortable.
Timothy Wenger: I think there is an expectation that men still don’t, or should not show emotion.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, it’s certain emotions too, because if you think about it, like you said, if a man is sad or depressed, or cries, that’s one thing. But if he’s frustrated or angry, and acts aggressive or loud, that seems to be accepted, sometimes.
Timothy Wenger: Exactly. Yes. If shows his fear, which is a totally normal emotion, they’re going to think he’s a coward. Why are you afraid of that? You’re a coward.
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right.
Timothy Wenger: And that’s just ridiculous.
Dr. BJ Gunther: You know, are we surprised when a man cries? You said it makes some people uncomfortable. Do you think it surprises some people, and they think that he’s less of a man?
Timothy Wenger: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, no yeah, I definitely think that that does happen. It’s a matter of being, almost self aware of those judgments too. Because it’s like there’s fine line when it’s very respectable for me sometimes, when I see a man do that. But other times, I’ve even found myself judging him. I’m like dude, just get your stuff together, you’re going to be fine.
Timothy Wenger: It’s an interesting thing, to even observe yourself, and you react to other men emoting. So, it’s fascinating for me.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah. One of the things I’m talking about with students now is, figuring out … let me see if I can ask this correctly, their role in a relationship, in a heterosexual relationship. You know, where a woman can provide for herself, and protect herself, and … sometimes the students I talk to, they really are confused sometimes about where they fit in. How they’re supposed to act. Do you know what I mean?
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. BJ Gunther: What do you think? What’s your comment on that?
Timothy Wenger: I think in a heterosexual relationship, I think as a man, if you can create a place of safety for your partner, you will be just fine. That doesn’t mean you have to bring in the money, or provide in all these different ways, but if you can help create that sense of safety, I think that’s a huge way to deal with those other past expectations.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Uh-huh. So security too. You know, provide some security too, I guess too. I guess that might be an old-fashioned belief, but it’s still true today. I still here that, even from 18, 19, 20 year olds. You know? In a private, counseling conversation.
Timothy Wenger: That doesn’t mean you have to have a hundred thousand dollars in your bank account. That means you … knowing when to help someone, I think you’re going to be okay. I think it really is that simple.
Dr. BJ Gunther: You know, we touched a little bit on depression. How do you think mental health and masculinity are connected?
Timothy Wenger: I have a working theory, this isn’t something that I have … I don’t have the study to back it up yet, but a lot of older men are depressed, and committing suicide, and a lot of them are alone right?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes.
Timothy Wenger: I see that coming from a place of not having friendships and comradery.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Uh-huh.
Timothy Wenger: And that comes from this macho, like as a man I must [inaudible 00:31:36] alone, lone wolf, I’m a survivor. You know?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: I see that as a really a big issue, because that kind of comes back to men can’t emote. If you don’t learn how to let one person in, you might end up being this old guy who’s depressed and suicidal, in your late 60’s or 70’s. That’s a really common problem.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Timothy Wenger: So my hope is to really help other men just get one friend, that they can share anything with.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Uh-huh.
Timothy Wenger: Because if you can learn to be vulnerable with one person, and just open up in a normal way, I think that helps men’s mental health a lot.
Timothy Wenger: I couldn’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone say to me in the conversation, Tim I thought I was the only one who struggled with this.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Oh yeah, oh yeah, definitely. I’ve heard that too.
Timothy Wenger: And I go nope, you’re not that special, sorry.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah, it’s just nobody’s talking about it. You know? Nobody opens up the dialogue sometimes.
Dr. BJ Gunther: You mentioned being vulnerable, I think a lot of men struggle with that, because it is seen as a weakness or something, for some guys.
Timothy Wenger: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. BJ Gunther: What do you think?
Timothy Wenger: I think it can be. It depends on the definition that you’re holding. Because some people use the word being vulnerable, as just showing emotion. And then some people view being vulnerable as just showing that you are weak.
Timothy Wenger: So it’s kind of like, on which side of the camp you’re in. But I know for myself, that there’s moments when, I’ll go back to those men’s groups, there was men who were … shared something that was extremely vulnerable to the group, but after they did that I had so much more respect for them, and that was so profound for me, that moment. Because I thought I would judge them more, but when I learned this very deep, dark, horrible thing that’s happened to them, it made me respect and care about them even more.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Right.
Timothy Wenger: And I found that really interesting.
Dr. BJ Gunther: You know-
Timothy Wenger: But that’s kind of my comparison.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Sure. We talk a lot … there’s a lot of dialogue about mental health in general, but when applying these kind of conversations to men’s struggles, struggle with mental health, do you think we’re falling short?
Timothy Wenger: You know, I feel like there’s this … I don’t know if we’re falling short, there’s a lot of really good tools out there you can use, [inaudible 00:34:21]. I think it’s a matter of awareness. Right?
Timothy Wenger: That’s what even I’ve been trying to do. I’ve been trying to connect all these different organizations and create an index of them. Think of your ‘Mo-vember Foundations’, they’re pushing men’s mental health, and prostate cancer, and this stuff.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: You have these men’s groups that are worldwide organizations, there’s multiple ones of them. That work with men, and help them engage with their heart, and do that personal mastery.
Timothy Wenger: So there’s a lot of these groups out there. It’s a matter of awareness. And for men to kind of think about, hey I’m having these struggles, this is something that isn’t unique, and there’s probably something out there that can help me with this. And just kind of looking into it, you know?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah. Well, I think you’re contributing to trying to encourage dialogue, or just general openness, you know, around the subject of mental health in men, hopefully. Have you found any other resources that you wanted to share, you know, with the listeners, that are really good resources for men’s mental health?
Timothy Wenger: Oh man-
Dr. BJ Gunther: Like a book, another website even. I think I was looking at your website, and you did mention, and I actually went to the website, and now I can’t remember the name of it. But it was very good, and it was on your face page, on ‘The Man Effect’ face page, I think.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah.
Dr. BJ Gunther: And I just can’t remember what it was called.
Timothy Wenger: Yes. There’s a couple, just on the practical, like how to change a tire, make a tie. ‘The Art of Manliness’, is a very [inaudible 00:36:10] website out there for men. ‘Mo-vember’ is another great foundation, if you want to get plugged into the local community.
Dr. BJ Gunther: What’s it called?
Timothy Wenger: What’s that?
Dr. BJ Gunther: What’s it called?
Timothy Wenger: ‘Mo-vember’, so it’s for mustache November.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay, yeah.
Timothy Wenger: They have a foundation called ‘Mo-vember’, and they’re a worldwide organization, really great people. So there’s this other group, a guy named Dan Dottie, he runs, called ‘Every Man’.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay.
Timothy Wenger: They’re kind of like an outdoor, adventure kind of group.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: But they also, engage with the heart as well. He’s a really cool guy.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, go ahead. Any books or anything, that you want to mention?
Timothy Wenger: Man, I’m trying to think of the books that really impacted me. If there was one, I like Bertrand Russell, ‘The Conquest of Happiness’.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes.
Timothy Wenger: That was glorious book. Might be a little dry, because it’s a little [crosstalk 00:37:10].
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: Trying to think on the emotion intelligence level.
Dr. BJ Gunther: What about … have you got any … do you present often? Do you do speaking engagements or, you know, you mentioned the men’s retreats, do you ever present yourself.
Timothy Wenger: Not yet, that’s something I want to get into. Since I’ve been building a business for the last year and a half, and my focus has been pretty drawn away from this passion right now, but I do want to get into public speaking. Just really create a conversation around what does it really mean to be a man? And what can we do about the struggle-
Dr. BJ Gunther: I think that would be … I’m sure there’s conferences about this, and … it would be kind of fun to go around the country speaking about something that you’re very passionate about, like you sound like you are.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, and I also use my photographs as part of the conversations, because the array of responses I got to my question, which was if you were to describe what it means to be a man in one word, what would it be and why?
Timothy Wenger: It’s just a very beautiful thing. I’ve traveled all over, I want to travel some more but … it’s just really fun.
Dr. BJ Gunther: What were some of the words? When you asked them describe it in one word? Not to put you on the spot, but can you think of some of them?
Timothy Wenger: Oh yes. I mean people chose integrity, strength, builder, love, safety. What are some other ones?
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: Stuff along that line. Those are some of the most popular ones, that I’ve [inaudible 00:39:02]. Hardworking, you know? Along those lines. Pretty much, you think about your grandpa, and everyone describes their grandpa in one word. That’s what they pretty much do.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Oh yeah, interesting.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, it’s really fun.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well, let’s do this. Let’s take one more short break, when we come back, I’m going to get to that question about culture and masculinity, I forgot to ask you that, so let’s take another quick break. It’ll be our last break, and then we’ll do the last segment, and then we’ll close for the evening, so if you’ll stay on the line, we’ll be right back. You’re listening to ‘Brain Matters’ on 90.7, The Capstone.
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Disclaimer: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you’re in need of professional mental health, and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county’s crisis service hotline, or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911, or go to your nearest emergency room.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Hey your back listening to ‘Brain Matters’, on 90.7 The Capstone. I’m Dr. BJ Gunther, and I’m interviewing tonight, Timothy Wenger. I keep … I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that right, I keep asking you that. But, it seems like I say it differently every time I say it.
Dr. BJ Gunther: We’re talking to night about defining masculinity, and Timothy is creator and developer of the website ‘The Man Effect’. Basically, I was just doing some research on this topic, and across your website, and thought it looked very interesting, and promising. Just felt like it would be a good interview, and it has been so far.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Do you … I have another email question, would you be willing to take another one?
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Another email question, do you think politics are impacting people’s views on masculinity? Wow. What a timely question.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah. I think that the identity politics is what’s really making people scared to have an opinion. Just because, now it’s a scary thing to be wrong, or have an opinion-
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right.
Timothy Wenger: Because you might get chewed out, or lose your job, or who knows anymore.
Dr. BJ Gunther: It’s true. Or criticized, or slandered.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yeah.
Timothy Wenger: I think is creating that tension, but out of chaos comes order. So I’m excited to see what’s on the other side of this.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Timothy Wenger: To see what comes out of it, because I think people will come out of that, with a very strong voice. And be like no, this is what it is-
Dr. BJ Gunther: Who knows.
Timothy Wenger: This is why. You know?
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right. It could go one way or the other.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay, so I’m going to get to my question about culture. Tell me where you’re calling from, I didn’t ask you this.
Timothy Wenger: Alright, you ready for this? I’m actually calling from Serbia. I’m from Washington, the Washington state forever.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay, so the state of Washington, but you’re in Serbia right now.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah.
Dr. BJ Gunther: So you can, I feel like you can answer this pretty well. How do you see, or have you read any articles, or done any research, or talked to anyone? I mean you’re in Serbia right now, how does culture affect the view on masculinity? We can even go deeper than that, as to the culture in the United State even.
Dr. BJ Gunther: North, south westerners, versus southerners, versus pacific northwest, you know, north westerners, you know what I mean. As far as culture goes, how can you talk about that?
Timothy Wenger: Since I am obsessed with this topic, when I came to Serbia for the first time, I came earlier this year. I learned that the men are more coddled in this society, so if you’re the first born son, you’re going to get given the house, and your parents are going to give you a car, and all that. So it’s still kind of very traditional in that sense. And what I see from that is, the men, because they’re coddled, this was my just observation, could be completely incorrect, but what I’m seeing is that a lot of men are insecure. And so domestic violence here is very, very, very normal.
Timothy Wenger: I see that, coming from that place of being coddled, and them not having to overcome [inaudible 00:43:33].
Timothy Wenger: So just like being an outsider and coming in, I felt that was very interesting.
Dr. BJ Gunther: It is interesting, and I didn’t know that about the Serbians. Did not … I mean I didn’t realize that. And there’s other cultures, you know, it’s not just the eastern block countries at all. It’s you know … we can talk about India, we could talk about-
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of really cool things about their culture too, that was just this one interesting thing I observed.
Timothy Wenger: I do think that your surroundings and your culture absolutely define, or influence, how you perceive what it means to be a man.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes.
Timothy Wenger: I’m trying to think of just like … so as an electrician, in the construction industry, how men act is completely different from how men acted when I worked at a grocery store.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Timothy Wenger: Just different sub-cultures even in different industries acted differently.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Yes.
Timothy Wenger: So I absolutely think it really influences mannerisms, and [inaudible 00:44:37], and language, for sure.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Behavior in general. Mental health, too.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah. Yeah, I think it does, absolutely. I think for the construction industry, when I was deep in it, people were like, “You’re a photographer?”
Dr. BJ Gunther: Like you couldn’t do both.
Timothy Wenger: Their like, “You’re not allowed to do that, you’re an electrician.” I just thought I don’t care. I like the things that I love.
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right. That’s right, I mean … it’s just we have these stereotypes, you know? And so, you have to fit in to this one little compartment. You have to fit into the construction worker compartment, and you can’t fit into the photographer compartment. You know?
Timothy Wenger: It was funny for me, because I would be you know, working eight, ten hour days with some rough people, and then I would go out by myself to photograph random people on the street. Or go hang out with photographer friends, that are very far on the other side spectrum of masculinity.
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right.
Timothy Wenger: There’s some people who likely feel … it’s a fun contrast to be in.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Okay, I’ve got to ask you, what time is it in Serbia?
Timothy Wenger: It is almost 2:00 AM, so it’s 1:50 AM.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much then, for calling into the show. And you got it right, I stress when I’m communicating with people, we are on central time. Because, I think we’ve had one mess up, where somebody called at the wrong time. But, for you it could really be a mess up, couldn’t it.
Timothy Wenger: Well, since my business is back in the US, I’m very, very aware of the time zones, and I have to make sure … because all my meetings are online.
Dr. BJ Gunther: That’s right. That’s right, I get you.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well thank you again, for being on the show. I really appreciate it, and I think some of the information you’ve provided has been very helpful. I want to publicize and market your website at little bit. Again it’s TheManEffect.com. Can you think of anything else, Timothy, you want to leave us with?
Timothy Wenger: Yeah sure, for anybody listening who wants another good book, this is kind of like a mystical book, by a guy named Robert Bly, it’s Iron John is the name of the book.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Say it again.
Timothy Wenger: That was the other I was thinking of, I was trying to think of when you asked-
Dr. BJ Gunther: Iron John?
Timothy Wenger: Yeah. It’s kind of the journey of a man. It’s a really cool book.
Dr. BJ Gunther: That would be an interesting book to have in our library, here on campus at the counseling center, I think.
Timothy Wenger: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Well thank you so much again, I’m going to make a few announcements before we close, but I really appreciate you being on the show. Have a good night.
Timothy Wenger: Thank you so much.
Dr. BJ Gunther: Don’t forget our shows are recorded and pod-casted, and their on the AudioBoom.com website, you can just type in ‘Brain Matters’, and you’ll find some of our past shows. Also, there’s a link to ‘Audio Boom’, on the counseling center’s website at Counseling.UA.edu.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I always like to make some announcements to promote the counseling center’s services. We offer a number of support groups and workshops to students throughout the year. For a current list of our groups, dates, and times please visit our website, again it’s Counseling.UA.edu, and click on the support groups link, under the counseling tab. You can also call the counseling center at (205) 348-3863 to inquire further. Some of our groups that we’re doing right now … I’m doing a group called ‘Wired and Tired’, and it’s strategies for managing your anxiety.
Dr. BJ Gunther: We also have a grief support group, a body image group, a first generation student support group, success and growth in the US workshop, ‘Color Me Empowered’ a support group for women of color, and I think my favorite group, and I’d love to go to this myself, is creative stress relief workshop, it’s on Friday’s and it’s very popular. So if you’re interested, give us a call, again that’s (205) 348-3863.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I like to thank some people for making the show possible. Dr. Lee Keyes, he’s our Executive Director of the counseling center. Terri Siggers, from the office of student media, my production assistant tonight is Lizzy Zeeman, and of course, my colleagues at the counseling center, and the WVUA staff, and my guest tonight, Timothy Wenger.
Dr. BJ Gunther: I want to remind everyone, we won’t have a show for the next two weeks, but we’ll be back for our last show of the semester on November the 27th, so come back for that show. And again, thanks for listen to ‘Brain Matters’ tonight on 90.7, The Capstone. Good night.
Disclaimer: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you’re in need of professional mental health, and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county’s crisis service hotline, or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911, or go to your nearest emergency room.
